每日吃瓜

"eangola wrote: Anyway, it is an idea... obviously that Juniper is very up end. But gives an idea. Oh right... tree needs foliage close to the trunk :whistle: . Completely unrealistic.

Oh sorry, i mistook you for the person who still has to have a tree survive the first repot and styling. Of course you know much better that you can reach the same refinement on pine as on junipers. And who does not like ponpon bonsai!

Actually all my trees survived but one... yeah I killed one, so what? You have never killed a tree?. I am just being constructive and helping this person. This is not pom pom style, it is called literati style, many trees in nature look like that and it is very different than pom pom. So sorry if some of us don't have +$100 trees and need something to work with to learn.
If this person's pine is not at your level, then why waste your time commenting here. You say it is unrealistic, but forget literary style is possible on pines, so no, it is not unrealistic.... it is not you style, that is another story.

It might be good to study the difference between bunjin art and "pom pom".

There's always something you can do , it just depends on your Skill level

JBP-stage 1

not sure why I get this sort of arguments. If you would look at my threads you'd see i prefer to work with garden rejects, and I have not made any comments on nothing being possible. I said striving for the juniper image is not realistic with this pine. The amount of detail needed is just too high for this very thin trunk and therefor large needles.

No matter how much you dislike it, trees typically need foliage closer to the trunk. Otherwise you will end up with ponpons instead of bonsai.. The way you go about rejecting this shows how many more trees you have to study. Trust me, i know literati. And I also know it is the most dificult ones, next to windswept to do realistically.

i suppose you think it is constructive to tell people they can achieve something. I think it is constructive to tell people there are limits what can be achieved with certain plants.

Craig wrote: There's always something you can do , it just depends on your Skill level

If you are willing to add.. And time, I would agree,

This is a pine I did at a workshop some 3 years ago. The tree itself was healthy and strong, yet not nearly the best material you could imagine. I bought it for some 25 euro's, as I needed a plant for the workshop and finished work on the tree I brought.

Unfortunately it died, not due to the styling, but due to an emergency repot in spring 3 months after styling. A bunch of ants decided that they would build their nest in this pot as it was breaknig candles. So I repotted and over the next months it got paler and paler, to eventually die. Still gutted, as it would have become a very different tree than normally seen.

This is probably the route I would take twith this tree. Use the first branch to build the main canopy, and bring that a long way down; perhapd bend the main trunk into two extreme loops. but I would make sure it is strong and healthy before doing it. But from the pictures it is hard to tell. The trunk is just very thin to get a realistic balance between needle size and trunk.

and Time , Yes for sure.

eangola wrote: I am just being constructive and helping this person.

1. Literati is one of the hardest styles to get right.
2. You posted a juniper, which much finer foliage than a pine

Your suggestion is very unrealistic.

Thanks , I had planned to work on a tree in the following year

leatherback wrote: not sure why I get this sort of arguments. If you would look at my threads you'd see i prefer to work with garden rejects, and I have not made any comments on nothing being possible. I said striving for the juniper image is not realistic with this pine. The amount of detail needed is just too high for this very thin trunk and therefor large needles.

No matter how much you dislike it, trees typically need foliage closer to the trunk. Otherwise you will end up with ponpons instead of bonsai.. The way you go about rejecting this shows how many more trees you have to study. Trust me, i know literati. And I also know it is the most dificult ones, next to windswept to do realistically.

i suppose you think it is constructive to tell people they can achieve something. I think it is constructive to tell people there are limits what can be achieved with certain plants.

I understand what you are saying. I see achieving the same ramification detail you can with a Juniper it is too hard with a pine, which makes the literati style quite hard to achieve, and you'll probably end up with pom pom. that's what I am getting from this. It all depends what you want to achieve, what I am trying to say, is that you have been doing this for more years, plus have your own garden growing big old plants, so your expectations are much higher. For you, a literati style tree done "realistically" would be different that from somebody who has never tried one, and needs practice. Some of us don't have access or the experience to obtain the material you do.

So the way I see it, if I have a $5 tree with no growth close to the trunk because I couldn't find anything better, or if I did, it was too expensive having the risk of killing it.I could sit and wait for the tree to back-bud for years, and don't get any practice on it, or I could go and try "literati" or similar. Tree might die, tree might end up looking like pom pom, who cares. You'll end up practicing a lot very very important things such as ramification,taper and wiring rather than waiting for the tree to become very good bonsai material, then kill it.... I think as we become experienced in something, we tend to forget how it was to be a beginner.

On the other hand, I started this hobby this year. I read many books, posts here, studied examples in both nature and bonsai before even trying my hand at bonsai. I tried to get as many trees as I could to get as much practice as possible, so I had a tight budget. I have about 10 trees, and I succeeded re-potting all of them, with my own soil mixture. Only one of them died on me, and it was the cheapest tree and most mistreated one, it was an experiment. All my other trees are growing and look very healthy, and their soil mixture is working pretty well. I am getting the hand of watering and fertilizing, and trying to grow different styles, going with the shape of each tree I can learn faster as a beginner. Next year or two years from now I might be ready to get my hands on a "realistic" to be 每日吃瓜, and I will go and pick a nice tree to work on, but for now, I need practice.

It is all relative, I think practice is really important, and I am sure many people starting want to get their hands on something without too high expectations. The literati style on the pine as you argue might be too hard, and yes I have to disagree with myself posting that Juniper was really unrealistic, I was wrong. But the literati style on a pine even though difficult it is still possible, and I am presenting that possibility to SerGO. Now you, more experienced, come and tell SerGO why literati on the pine shouldn't be the way to go, and present him better options. Very constructive I agree with you. And I am being constructive, offering my point of view which creates contrast with the better option offered by the more experienced people.

So instead of criticizing, or attacking each other on this forum, we should stick to seeing each other point of view.
I learned, SerGO learned, and maybe you learned as well. There was really no point on attacking me about my dead, mistreated Juniper, on a forum that has nothing to do with that. There is a topic on that tree somewhere else on the forums where you can say whatever you want. Having a 90% success rate with re-potting on my first time, I am pretty damn sure I know how and when to re-pot a tree now. I didn't back then, but I am pretty sure you didn't either before you started.